In this episode of The Private Practice Elevation Podcast, you’re going to learn about the difference between a group practice owner with a 6-figure business and one with a 7-figure business.

Most therapists begin in private practice without much training in business development.

So it can take years to learn how to run a solo practice successfully and then add some clinicians and transition to the group practice business model.

But what are the things you should think about or do when you’re just starting to build your group practice?

And once that group practice is established, how do you shift your focus to being a true group practice owner so that you can free up your time to continue to innovate and grow the business?

My special guest this week is Maureen Werrbach from The Group Practice Exchange, where she helps healthcare owners learn how to successfully start and scale their businesses, so that they can have a larger impact on their communities.

Maureen is also the owner of a group practice in Chicago, Urban Wellness, where she employs 40 of her own clinical staff.

So, Maureen knows a thing or two about scaling a private practice and leading a team of clinicians that share her vision for her business.

If you want some key lessons to help you can start and continue to grow your own group practice, listen up!

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

  • The first thing you should work on while you’re still a solo practitioner to set you up for group practice success
  • Why it’s so important to focus on your own leadership skills
  • Important steps you can take so that you hire the RIGHT therapists for your practice
  • Some of the things you’ll need to put in place so you can remove yourself from the day to day running of your practice
  • Creative steps you can take to get more help in your practice even if you think you can’t afford it
  • How to change your mindset to get out of your own way and grow your group practice
  • Building trust with your team so that you can let go
  • What to do when you feel like you don’t have time to focus on your own personal growth

Level Up Your Group Private Practice 

We’ve been having a blast redesigning group practice websites and helping them get found online. If you’re wondering how we could help you level up your private practice with a new website or SEO, schedule a free 15-minute consultation to get started.

Links mentioned in this episode:

About Maureen Werrbach

Maureen Werrbach, LCPC, is a multi-business entrepreneur in the mental health field. She owns Urban Wellness, a large counseling group practice in Chicago, The Group Practice Exchange, a business coaching firm, and co-owns Group Practice Builders, a business focused conference for group practice owners.

Her aim in life is helping the helpers. As a helping professional herself, she knows first-hand the focus healthcare providers put on making a positive impact in the world. She also knows that many healthcare professionals put business second to boots-on-the-ground helping in the community. That’s where she comes in. She helps healthcare owners learn how to successfully start and scale their businesses, so that they can have a larger impact on their communities.

Episode Transcript

Daniel Fava  0:00  

All right. Well, thank you so much, Maureen, for joining me. How are you doing today?

Maureen Werrbach  0:07  

I’m doing well. How are you?

Daniel Fava  0:08  

I am doing and great excited to get this week underway. It’s gonna be a kind of a crazy, crazy week election week here. So it’s trying to take some actual slow self care time, how about you?

Maureen Werrbach  0:23  

Same. Tomorrow, I’ll be taking off. And depending on how I feel, I’ll take some more time.

Daniel Fava  0:32  

Right? I think everyone is kind of at that sort of same, you know, same place. And when this podcast comes out, it’ll probably be out in like, December or so. So everyone will hopefully, you know, the dust will settle after that. So we’ll see. But thank you so much for joining me, I’m really excited to chat with you just about group practices and about scaling, which is something that I’ve been really diving into with this podcast, and so excited to share your expertise with the world. Before we get into sort of the meat of what we’re chatting about love for just you to introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about, you know, obviously what it is that you do, how you help practice owners, but also hear a little bit about love to hear a little bit about how you got started doing what you’re doing. So just pass it over to you.

Maureen Werrbach  1:19  

Alright, so I’m Maureen Werbach. And I own three businesses at the group practice itself, urban wellness, which I started in 2012 in Chicago, which now has just around 40 therapists, wow, relocations. And I also have the group practice exchange that I started in 2015, so almost six years ago, and that is a place where I help other people start and scale their group practices, through, you know, various things like membership sites, and podcasts and all that fun stuff. And then the third one is group practice builders, which is something I co own with a friend of mine, who’s also a local group practice owner. And with that we just host a once per year in person, usually, but this year was virtual conference for group practice owner, so I’m pretty. I’m pretty niched, down to group practices.

Daniel Fava  2:15  

Yes, that is that is your the lifeblood of your business. That’s, that’s awesome. I love just hearing, you know, obviously, that you’re, you’ve got three businesses going on. And so like all these questions come to mind for me of just like, Well, how do you manage that? How do you balance that? I’m sure we’ll get into some of that here. But congratulations are in 4040 employees in your group practices. That’s, that’s awesome.

Maureen Werrbach  2:39  

Yeah. And we’re always pivoting and thinking about how we want to how we want it to look. And so, you know, right now, we’re in the process of diversifying our services a little bit. About a year and a half ago, I was just thinking about, you know, what would happen, you know, if insurance companies shifted, you know, in Chicago, we’re pretty lucky as a practice, or as a in private practice world in Chicago, compared to some other states insurance reimburse fairly well, certain ones. But I was just thinking, you know, what would happen if insurance companies decided to majorly shifts there, how much they cover? And so I was thinking about ways that I could diversify the income of my staff. And so I started the process of becoming a ce e provider, like as a group practice, and it took over a year. 

And oddly enough, you know, COVID hit and sort of reminded me of why it’s, it’s smart to look ahead and think of, you know, how you can pivot and diversify services, because with COVID, you know, every it rocked the private practice world as it did every other kind of business. And so right now, we’re finally at the space of having a CTE program for therapists and general Mental Health Training Program for, you know, clients, or the general public and various topics that all of our staff get to do through webinars, which is really fun. So we’re just growing. That’s awesome. Yeah. 

But that’s kind of, I don’t know, one big thing. I think that’s come out of all of this is just learning how to be able to pivot. And I think that’s been one of the things that’s helped me grow my business.

Daniel Fava  4:23  

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that’s awesome. Congratulations. That’s another thing that can be a lot of hard work. I’ve spoken to a number of other people you’re getting that credentialing can be, can be quite a lot of homework and a lot of work.

Maureen Werrbach  4:38  

Yeah, it literally took I think, like 14 or 15 months, it was just a lot of back and forth. Because we weren’t trying to get a single training approval, we want to just our whole organization to be approved, so that we could do any trainings we wanted without having to continuously get approval. So that process was just a little bit more grueling. Yeah,

Daniel Fava  5:01  

Wow, that’s awesome, though. Very cool. Yeah, it’s so it’s so important to be able to pivot and I’m super thankful it just the world that we live in now, you know, to being able to go online and to be able to teach your expertise. And there’s been so many people that have kind of gone that direction, or been in that process of either building an online course or working on their mastermind group or something like that. And it’s just the barrier to entry is not huge. So it’s great that you can kind of anyone can kind of take their expertise online and start diversifying their income. Yeah, yeah. Well, tell me a little bit more before we get into what we’re going to talk about today, which is we want to talk about the the difference between a six figure group practice and a seven figure group practice and sort of, you know, what are the what are going to be the focuses of those two camps, I want to just hear a little bit more about how you got started doing what what you’re doing, you’re doing, you’re doing a lot, you’re serving your community, both locally, and, you know, probably worldwide with what you do for, for a group practice owners, but I’d love to just hear a little bit more of your story of how you got into that.

Maureen Werrbach  6:16  

My story is not that exciting or unique, probably very similar to most people who start a group practice, I was solo. And I’ll say maybe the unique pieces I was solo for, probably six months before I hired my first person. So I didn’t stay solo very long, which I think typically, most group practice owners have been solo for a while before they before they bring on their first person, but I was solo I was able to fill up relatively easily. And this was, you know, back in 2012, before all these Facebook groups and places to get support. So I didn’t know any other group practice owners, I’m pretty introverted. So I’m not one that would just naturally know, a lot of people. And so I I remember thinking that it’s a little lonely, which is very common for solo practitioners, to think, and I thought, oh, wouldn’t it be cool to have someone else here?

It’s, it’s simple, I didn’t think too deeply about it. But I was like, it would be cool to have, I didn’t think it was going to be where I’m at, or where I’m at now. But I thought, I’ll bring one person on, it won’t be this hard, right? super easy. And that’s, I did, and she’s still with me. And we always laugh about how different things were, you know, that many years ago compared to where it’s at now. And, you know, it just was an evolution I, I learned, Holy moly, you can’t just watch something and not think it fully through. And so very quickly into after hiring her. I realized I needed to actually put policies in place and procedures and think a little deeply about what the values of the business are and where I envisioned it going and all that stuff. And that’s where really a lot of the hard work came in. Yeah,

Daniel Fava  8:16  

Yeah. That’s awesome. I love that simple thought. Like, it’d be nice to have someone else here.

Maureen Werrbach  8:22  

The one thing I tell people now, if that’s all you want, you know, have some friends that are in the group practice world. It’s not the greatest strategy for for starting a business, like, where you’re gonna have employees, you know, you have you have other people’s lives on the line in a way. But yeah, that’s how that’s how I did it.

Yeah. Well, let’s segue a little bit into, you know, just some of what we’re going to talk about, you know, as I mentioned, the difference between a six figure, practice and a seven figure practice. Tell me a little bit more about what are the what are some of those things? Well, sorry, before we get there. Let’s talk a little bit about what’s the focus of starting out, like you just mentioned a few things there about procedures and really like the vision and the values of the business. So before someone’s even hitting that six figure point, what are some of the things that people are going to be focusing on when they’re really like first starting out? Maybe you can say like, what’s the three most important things that you need to work on at that stage?

Oh, three. Okay. Really?

Daniel Fava  9:27  

Is that too limiting to you?

Maureen Werrbach  9:29  

I’ll do it. I’ll do it. I won’t I won’t promise that later on. I won’t send you a message saying I wish I would have said this thing. Because this is actually even more important, but

Daniel Fava  9:40  

Well, that’s what show notes are for. So

Maureen Werrbach  9:42  

Yes that’s true.

I think it’s important to so I’m going to say aside from the things that I just mentioned. So having a vision, a set of values for your business, knowing where you kind of want it to go so that there’s a map of sorts, but we Wanting policies and procedures, we have them when we’re so low, we just usually don’t write them down in their in our brains, start writing them down, and know that they’re a living document, it’s mine even changes. Now, you know, it’s never finished. As the world evolves as just business evolves, it’ll shift. And so don’t wait for perfection or feeling like you have it all together before you start writing down. You know, policies and procedures, just write down what you know, that’s in your head now, and be okay with knowing that it’s a living document that might shift and change a little bit later. So that’s one an important one, I think that’s something that people kind of don’t do fully, because they think, Oh, I’m going to hire great people. 

And they’re just going to think similarly to me, and they’re going to appreciate the you know, I’m going to say it out loud once and they’re just going to follow it, it’s just not the case, not even for the best of people, you need to have things written in stone so that you can refer back to them. And so that’s one another is focusing on the leader your own leadership skills. It’s something I didn’t focus on. I am a therapist, first business owner, seconds, I feel like now kind of the opposite after all these years. 

But starting off, most of us are therapists first, who go into business. So our business hat is kind of the secondary hat, right. And so focusing on growing your own leadership skills is going to be really important so that you can maintain a good team and so that they feel supported. It also help with your own process of finding the right therapist for your practice, a better leader you are, the more you know what you need, and the better you are at during the interview process. So whether that’s reading, you know, books I have Friday is my own I do I will do this for the rest of my life is my own leadership day, I don’t schedule anything else. And I do anything that helps promote my own growth as a leader. 

So I have two hours worth reading time scheduled in there. Two hours of visionary time, which is just sitting and thinking with my little rocket book, where I just take notes of things I’m thinking about with any one of my businesses. There’s a really powerful to just have time to think without needing to do which I think as business owners, we always feel like we need to be productive and get Yeah,

Daniel Fava  12:25  

Absolutely.

Maureen Werrbach  12:26  

Yeah. So scheduling time to actually be able to grow your own leadership skills, like I said, whether it’s through reading or getting coaching, or support or any of that. And then knowing who your ideal therapist, his or therapists are, I think that’s really important. I’ll tell you, every group practice owner has made mistakes in their hiring process. It’s just a rite of passage. So you’ll make them but you’ll make less of them. If you think less about just bringing on someone to take some of the referrals that you have, which is I think how a lot of group practice owners initially think is I just need someone to take the overflow. 

And I like to look at, you know, who is the ideal therapist for my practice beyond just filling the room, you know, filling the open spaces? And in taking those client referrals? Do I want you know, what fits with the vision of my practice? And where I want it to go? Is it someone who’s fully licensed or not? Is it someone with certain specialties? What are the non negotiables that I have? In my hiring in who I want to hire in terms of personality and characteristics? Do I want you know, kind of referencing the book radical candor do I want a rock star or superstar type of employee, the rock stars are like rock solid, they’re consistent, they’re reliable, they do great work. The superstars are those things, but they also have a desire to move forward, they tend to be the people that leave to start their own private practice. But if you’re wanting to scale and grow, you’re going to need someone who can help lead with you, whether it’s by being a supervisor, or clinical director in the future. 

And if you have a whole bunch of rock stars, rock stars, as I always say, it’s like my husband, he’s in the meet. He’s a Chicago public school teacher, he’s amazing teacher is his principal. You know, trust him knows he does great work. And it knows what she’s going to get with that it’s consistent. Everyone just like loves working with him because he does a rock solid job, but he’s never gonna he doesn’t He’s like, I want to be a principal. He’s always like, I don’t know how you own businesses that just, he’s not the superstar type that wants to like just keep moving up. He want he wants to be really good at what he does. And for him being you know, a great teacher and and growing that skill is that’s like his superpower. But I see this a lot it with group practices that want to get to that seven figure Mark and I know I’m kind of flipping over the seven figure place for a second.

But you can’t be seven figures and you do all of the stuff, you’re gonna have to have teams of people who can lead different things. And so when in the hiring process, just getting prepped, when you’re first starting off of asking yourself, do I need someone who’s rock solid, there’s gonna be a great clinician and be consistent and not, you know, and doesn’t have this need to move up and forward all the time. Because you need a mix of both of those, you need people who don’t move and you need people who do their work really well and don’t have the desire to. So that would be the other thing is just, you know, really getting set on who your ideal therapists are. So that you know, you’re hiring the right people for your practice.

Daniel Fava  15:37  

Yeah, that’s awesome. And one thing that I’m I’m hearing, as you’re speaking on these three points, is I just hear intentionality, and just, you know, kudos to you for having that sort of practice. You know, even just taking that time for that business development and leadership development, I just hear a lot of intentionality and what you have done and learned over the years. And I think that that can really help a lot of people make less mistakes is to spend that time planning and thinking and being intentional about what they want things to look like.

Maureen Werrbach  16:14  

I will say, I was not like this in the beginning. And I think we all learn

Daniel Fava  16:19  

Yeah.

Maureen Werrbach  16:21  

So yeah, those will be the things in you know, beyond the actual business building stuff. Those would be so three things that maybe aren’t at the forefront of people’s minds when they’re starting new businesses. So think about, it’ll help with scaling. In terms of what, what you need to do, to have a business that can shift to being larger or seven figures. I always think, you know, the seven figure ideas are an arbitrary number. But just like, if you want to scale and get larger, and probably the byproduct of that is that you’ll have a practice that seven figures, but there are some things that are pretty, that need to happen for that sustainability, to happen. And one of those is I brought up a little bit with the idea of the superstars is you need a team of people that you can delegate to. And when I mean delegate, I mean, the real, the real, delegating, delegating, not only the tasks, but the outcome of those tasks, so that you don’t have to be a part of it. Like, I’m not a part of the day to day of my group practice. 

Because I have a, I have supervisors, I have a clinical director, I have administrative leadership team, the business could run itself. And that’s, you know, ultimately, what you need out of really any business is it can’t rise and fall with you, if you are so important in your business. And it can fall apart when, when you’re gone. You haven’t really created a great business you created, you created something really great for yourself, but not for sustainability and for legacy. So I would say having a leadership team is going to be really important and thinking about that. And there’s so many creative ways to you know, build a leadership team, as you’re, as you’re growing. My clinical director I brought on when I had three people, including her. I mean, very small, most people don’t have a clinical director, but she worked two hours a week maybe as a clinical director and 20 something as a therapist. 

There’s a way for people to grow into their positions. And I think people just don’t get creative enough and thinking and they’re like, I can’t afford a full time clinical director, like a full time one. I don’t grow with your business, you know?

Daniel Fava  18:42  

Yeah, exactly. And I think I think a lot of us as business owners, especially when we’re when we’re starting out, and I’ve gone through that stage to have just like, Oh, I can’t I can’t afford someone to do this or that. So I’ll just take care of it. And then you you realize how much of your time is being spent on that thing. And then when you finally do hire somebody like oh, yeah, I can just take them off for just a couple of hours, I can hire a VA for maybe three or four hours a week and just give them some stuff that comes off of my plate. And I think that that’s one of the biggest things that I’ve learned myself in my own business about scaling is there’s always something that you can do to get something off your plate, there’s always something that you can do to keep moving forward towards that vision of you being the business, a true business owner, instead of the employee in the business.

Maureen Werrbach  19:30  

I think that points to my last I think important piece for those seven figures beyond delegating and having a leadership team is your is the mindset piece. I think there’s a lot of ego in place. 

Initially when we start our businesses that it’s ours, it were very important because we are the ones building it. And there’s a lot of that that needs to be like go have to scale and grow. And it can be hard because you realize maybe you’re not that important, right? If you grow a business in a way where you have a whole team of people that are, you know, I don’t do any hiring and micro practice my I have a team of people that do the hiring that do the firing that did all of it, I do the visionary piece, I’m the one that ensures that the business is moving in the direction it needs to go in, and that all the moving pieces are in line with that vision, but all the day to day stuff, what feels like the important stuff is being done by other people. 

And so it can feel if you don’t have a good mindset about it, you’ll be in your own way of growing, because you’ll insert yourself in the day to day of the business so that you can show to your team and your staff, I’m important to remember me. Because I think there’s this you know, part of scarcity mindedness of like, if I’m not in my business every day, people are going to wonder why I own the business or like, what am I even doing as a business owner? And usually, that’s a projection. And so, yeah, mindset would I think is the last piece that’s really important. And that’s something I work on even now. It doesn’t You don’t? There’s no perfecting the mindset.

Daniel Fava  21:16  

Yeah, right. That’s something we’re always always growing in. And I think for one thing that comes to mind, for me is the sort of the aspect of giving up control, you know, and being okay with letting your team make mistakes, you know, teaching teaching them through those mistakes, and because otherwise, you’re not going to be able to give them stuff in the future. I know that my business is obviously different being a web design agency, but the same sort of thing applies where I know, when I first started hiring developers, it was like, well, they can’t provide the quality that I do have design or whatever. And I was like, well, that’s really up to me to teach and to set that vision and really define what that quality is, and then let somebody else own it. And that was hard. It’s been hard.

Maureen Werrbach  22:07  

Yeah, I think that’s the hardest piece for all business owners, when it comes to scaling is trusting the teams that we have an easy to use, I think a lot of business owners say they trust their teams. When they’re not actually giving their teams anything of value to do. Like that’s really feels big. Like I remember thinking, I trust my clinical Doc, because she’s been a clinical director since the beginning. 

But in the beginning, there was only two other people besides her. So she wasn’t directing herself. She was a clinical director, and essentially two people. So there wasn’t any major things she could do to mess things up. And so I would always be like, She’s great. And I trust her. And it wasn’t until we got to a point where we said, How about you do the hiring, and I’m not even a part of it. Because we had supervisors at that point, then so she could do the recruiting the initial interview, if she liked them, whichever locations supervisor, whichever location, that person would be going to potentially that supervisor would do the final interview, and then the supervisor and clinical director would collaboratively make the decision all without me. And I remember that being the point where I was like, I trust her. But do I trust her? In the big thing is, which is like a real? What does that mean? 

When I you know, I think a lot of us say we trust people, when in reality we don’t. We’re just giving them the easy things that we know that they can’t eff up to back too badly. And we’re like, okay, we trust her. And it wasn’t until really significant leader like tasks to own and fully do without my involvement, where it tested my ability to shift my mindset and say, you know, the here, here’s where, you know, the foot meets the pedal or whatever that quote is where you’re like, let’s see how it goes like this will be the test to show that I’ve done well with training her to lead and, and letting her maybe fall a few times and learn on her own. And that’s really the test of being able to scale is allowing your team to do that.

Daniel Fava  24:18  

Yeah, yeah, but it also you as you said, you kind of you gave her those things that were those smaller tasks and you’re kind of building those almost like seeds of trust that we’re all leading up to that point where like, Okay, here we go. Like, let’s give you the big thing. And so that’s I think that that’s sort of that progress piece of like, you might not just bring someone on and then give them all the stuff and kind of run away like yeah, let’s let’s see what you can do. You know, I think that that’s, I can be like where ego kind of gets in the way to like, you can’t do this as good as I can. Let’s watch you fail, you know, like, that’s not good leadership. Right there. So you, you you sowed those seeds of trust and giving those them those smaller tasks to do leading Now you can fully step away.

Maureen Werrbach  25:02  

Yeah, yeah. So I’d say that those are the main things is, if you if you’re wanting to grow and scale to a larger kind of effect, you’ll need to be able to delegate all a lot of the things that you can focus on just the visionary piece of your business, which is the most important piece, that’s the part that no one can replicate, you know, is your brain and where you want the business to go, and how you want it to learn, everything else can be replicated. So being able to delegate the phones and the billing and the payroll, and the leadership, the leadership within the business, and the hiring, and the performance improvement plans like that, you need to be able to delegate all of those things. And then you need to be able to build a team that can lead all of those pieces, because at the end of the day, you delegate all those things, someone has to leave those people who are doing all those things now, so that leadership teams become important and being able to look at your team and see the potential in someone and train them to lead because similar to you know, me I like I said, initially, I wasn’t a natural born leader, I had to work at it. And so is likely a lot of your team that you do, you know, elevate into a leadership position, they might have to also get that leadership training. So making sure you have the time to train them to actually lead. And then lastly, working on the mind mindset piece.

It feels very big and heavy. The larger your businesses, the more people rely on the business, the more people you’re supporting through the business. So employees but also clients, the heavier it can feel like the weight of so much. And every once in a while I still go through this. And that’s when I might have to remind myself, this is a mindset thing like this is all like there’s an area I need to grow in, that I haven’t been paying attention to. Because everything is feeling really heavy right now. Yeah. I’d say those are the biggest three things to focus on if you’re wanting to scale beyond. Yeah. Yeah, the six figure realm. 

Daniel Fava  27:11  

Cool. Well, one one last question to kind of wrap up this conversation is, well, what would you say to someone who’s that, that in between place like they’ve started their group practice, they’re, they’re making those strides, they have that dream and desire envision to reach the seven figures or whatever number they put in their mind. 

Um, but they’re in it, you know, they’re sort of in that day to day stuff, they’re not able to take two hours each week, or they haven’t yet, you know, to really focus on their leadership, what would you say to that type of house owner,

Maureen Werrbach  27:42  

I know exactly what I would say, Now, based off of what you just said, I would say, to delegate your time better, if you’re at a place where you don’t have time to to grow your own leadership skills for two hours a week, then you’re you haven’t delegated the basics enough, right? If you or you’re seeing too many clients still, which might be an issue for some group, practice owners who are still majorly wearing the clinician hat, you need to have time, and you need to prioritize things that maybe aren’t taski and listi. I know people like to check off lists and respond to emails and, you know, send an email to that marketing, you know, or network with someone. 

Those are all fine things. But those are things other people can do, again, are your brain is needed for the vision of your business, my brain is needed for that. And so if I can’t carve out a couple of hours a week to just sit and think about where the businesses where I want it to be, it won’t grow. And so I would say, look at what how you’re spending your time and delegate more, because if you don’t have enough time, you haven’t done the delegation piece. And that’s right. 

That’s really what most people are doing in the six figure range is like, they might not have leadership teams, but they’re delegating phones, they’re delegating billing, right? They’re thinking about those things. And if you’re so full, you can’t do that. Then I would look at what’s all on your plate. And what else can you delegate eliminate, or simplify?

Daniel Fava  29:14  

Mm hmm. Awesome. Thank you so much for that. And thank you so much for this conversation and for being on the podcast. Where can people find you to hear more about how they can grow their group practices?

Maureen Werrbach  29:27  

They can go to thegrouppracticeexchange.com. We have a membership site with a lot of group practice owners in there. So it’s a great place to get not only my brain in there, but a bunch of other group practice owners who are really really successful, as well as some some other experts like financial planners and such. So that would be the best place to find me out. So group, the group practice exchange calm,

Daniel Fava  29:53  

Awesome. We’ll link to that in the show notes. And I must say, you’ve done an amazing job. just filling that website. It’s just so packed with information I’ve spent spent a lot of time on there preparing for, you know, having you on here. But even you know, over the last couple years is I have followed you what you what you’ve been doing. And it’s just a lot of just great information. So everyone should definitely go check that out. We’ll put that in the show notes for sure.

Maureen Werrbach  30:18  

Thank you, I don’t even want to know what you as a web designer think of. Because it’s always been in my brain because I built that site. So it’s obviously not professionally done like you would do. But it’s like, I feel like word vomit of every thought you really can find you could probably build your whole business without joining any membership or anything just by browsing through that site. So much.

Daniel Fava  30:43  

Yeah, there’s a lot on there. And it’s really, you know, as a web designer, I would say that that’s what it’s all about is the you know, having a website is just being able to communicate and share your message. And you’ve certainly done that and whatever the website looks like and it’s, I’m able to get through it and find what I need. And that’s what everyone really needs is just a website that’s usable and so it’s usable. And I think it’s I think it does look good. It’s easy to find stuff that you need to get to so I was also well thank you so much for joining me, Maureen. Really appreciate it.

Maureen Werrbach  31:17  

Have a good one.

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